Last Monday (16 Aug 2004) I was on an IFR flight from Oakland, CA to Ogden,
UT.

About thirty minutes from Ogden, I heard Salt Lake Center call a Lifeguard
flight and clear him direct to (what sounded like) widow. The pilot asked
for spelling and Center said Whiskey, India, Delta, Oscar, Echo. There was a
pause of a few seconds and the Lifeguard pilot repeated the spelling for
confirmation. He had it right. He said he couldn't find it in his database
and asked if it was on the Low Altitude chart. The controller, a bit peeved
by now, said it was. I couldn't find it on my Jepp chart or in my Garmin
296's database, which I'd just updated -- from Jepp, of course.

I called Center and said I couldn't find WIDOE on my GPS either. "Roger," he
said.

Today, still curious about this intersection, I called Denver FSS and asked
about it. The briefer found it immediately and said it was at 41 13 by 112
46 -- definitely in Utah.

My chart and my GPS is blank in that area.

I went to www.arnav.com and looked up WIDOE. I immediately found it. The
entry says it's on the "MILITARY IAP" chart and its use is "Military
reporting."

Why would the Salt Lake Center controller give a civilian pilot a military
fix and why wouldn't the controller know it wasn't on the low altitude
chart? Are military fixes not distinguished from civilian fixes on his
scope?

Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?

Are any military fixes in the Jepp database?

Has anyone else been cleared to a military fix?

Do I ask too many questions?

Jon

According to my slightly out-of-date Destination Direct,
WIDOE is 253@31 from OGD VOR, a bit south of V6 between OGD and LCU.
And all I have is the personal IFR from DD.

truly wierd.

At that location in FlightMap there is something called Tresend but nothing
called Widoe. My FlightMap database is about 8 months old.

Mike
MU-2


"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
news:WP9Vc.282686$a24.109427@attbi_s03...
> Last Monday (16 Aug 2004) I was on an IFR flight from Oakland, CA to
Ogden,
> UT.
>
> About thirty minutes from Ogden, I heard Salt Lake Center call a Lifeguard
> flight and clear him direct to (what sounded like) widow. The pilot asked
> for spelling and Center said Whiskey, India, Delta, Oscar, Echo. There was
a
> pause of a few seconds and the Lifeguard pilot repeated the spelling for
> confirmation. He had it right. He said he couldn't find it in his database
> and asked if it was on the Low Altitude chart. The controller, a bit
peeved
> by now, said it was. I couldn't find it on my Jepp chart or in my Garmin
> 296's database, which I'd just updated -- from Jepp, of course.
>
> I called Center and said I couldn't find WIDOE on my GPS either. "Roger,"
he
> said.
>
> Today, still curious about this intersection, I called Denver FSS and
asked
> about it. The briefer found it immediately and said it was at 41 13 by 112
> 46 -- definitely in Utah.
>
> My chart and my GPS is blank in that area.
>
> I went to www.arnav.com and looked up WIDOE. I immediately found it. The
> entry says it's on the "MILITARY IAP" chart and its use is "Military
> reporting."
>
> Why would the Salt Lake Center controller give a civilian pilot a military
> fix and why wouldn't the controller know it wasn't on the low altitude
> chart? Are military fixes not distinguished from civilian fixes on his
> scope?
>
> Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?
>
> Are any military fixes in the Jepp database?
>
> Has anyone else been cleared to a military fix?
>
> Do I ask too many questions?
>
> Jon
>
>

On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 22:28:06 GMT, "Jon Woellhaf" >
wrote:

>Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?

According to Voyager, a Seattle Avionics flight planning program which uses
NACO enroute charts, WIDOE is at Lat/Long: N 41°11.572' x W 112°46.495'

FlightStar, a Jepp product, did not have WIDOE in its DB. Likewise, my
CNX80 simulator does not have WIDOE.

So I guess it's on the NACO charts, which is what ATC uses but not, for
whatever reason, in the Jepp DB.

I'd guess that a note to Jepp describing this occurrence would get it
added.




--ron

AnywhereMap has it, it's on the western edge of the Great Salt Lake.
It's also on the NE corner of R6404A.
If it wasnt in my database, I'd just be guessing the controller was
rolling the dice and hoping you'd find it, as it's probably used as
a point to miss some special use airspace. We use alot of those,
some are in our intra-center letters of agreements and there'd be
no way a pilot would know them. Some have actual 5 letter
names, and that particular name may be used somewhere else
in the country, with that exact spelling, so it'd be a bad idea
for us to issue that fix as you'd find it in your database and
it might be hundreds of miles away from what we mean.
We used to have a bunch that were 5 letter that were entry/exit
points into military stereo routes. They were great for using
as a fix for a computer entry, they usually passed on to the
next facility, military pilots would know them, but they werent
in any database. Some controllers would get lazy, forget, or just
assume they were in the database and make the mistake of
saying them on freq to civilian pilots, usually followed by
a pilot saying "huh"?

Chris


"Jon Woellhaf" > wrote in message
news:WP9Vc.282686$a24.109427@attbi_s03...
> Last Monday (16 Aug 2004) I was on an IFR flight from Oakland, CA to
Ogden,
> UT.
>
> About thirty minutes from Ogden, I heard Salt Lake Center call a Lifeguard
> flight and clear him direct to (what sounded like) widow. The pilot asked
> for spelling and Center said Whiskey, India, Delta, Oscar, Echo. There was
a
> pause of a few seconds and the Lifeguard pilot repeated the spelling for
> confirmation. He had it right. He said he couldn't find it in his database
> and asked if it was on the Low Altitude chart. The controller, a bit
peeved
> by now, said it was. I couldn't find it on my Jepp chart or in my Garmin
> 296's database, which I'd just updated -- from Jepp, of course.
>
> I called Center and said I couldn't find WIDOE on my GPS either. "Roger,"
he
> said.
>
> Today, still curious about this intersection, I called Denver FSS and
asked
> about it. The briefer found it immediately and said it was at 41 13 by 112
> 46 -- definitely in Utah.
>
> My chart and my GPS is blank in that area.
>
> I went to www.arnav.com and looked up WIDOE. I immediately found it. The
> entry says it's on the "MILITARY IAP" chart and its use is "Military
> reporting."
>
> Why would the Salt Lake Center controller give a civilian pilot a military
> fix and why wouldn't the controller know it wasn't on the low altitude
> chart? Are military fixes not distinguished from civilian fixes on his
> scope?
>
> Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?
>
> Are any military fixes in the Jepp database?
>
> Has anyone else been cleared to a military fix?
>
> Do I ask too many questions?
>
> Jon
>
>

Gee, do I get to "get peeved" every time I file to an intersection
that ATC doesn't have in ITS database? I guess not. You know, I
suspect the airlines have this intersection and ATC uses it a lot.
It's in ATC database, and the airlines know about it, so they figure
everyone should. I have filed to intersections, even VORs and airports
that were unknown to the ATC I was talking to. (Usually in a different
sector, but not necessarily, I've seen ATC NOT know about airports
underlying their Class BRAVO! (Platte Valley, Denver)). I've also seen
them not know about intersections in their sector. Anyway, with ATC
under IFR, things like this are fairly frequent. I took a tour of
Denver Tracon and was astounded by their lack of knowledge about
anything they don't commonly do and seeming lack of ability to look
things up. Oh, they have software that has more info than what they
commonly use, but they don't use it much, maybe they do by now. There
is a saying that you really aren't fully operational until you know
what ATC is going to say when you make a request ( or know that it
will be one of several possible replies). Just keep your cool, be
pleasant, even if they aren't, and get what you need. Work it out.
Like someone said, this appears to be a Jepp problem, so send them an
email.

The one that gets me is when they get peeved because I want to fly an
approach, and they want me to take the visual! I am on an IFR flight
plan, and I need to practice my approaches "in the system". But he
has a coffee break or something coming up. And it's not uncommon. Many
airlines have op specs that REQUIRE them to fly the approach, or so I
am told. They need to get routed to the final vector or some such. I
guess maybe he's busy, and I am a pain in the ass. Sheesh, he signed
on to be an air traffic controller, but ask him to control air
traffic, man, " I don't want to do THAT! That would be a lotta work!"
Maybe I should tell him I have to because it's in my "op specs".

>The controller, a bit peeved
> by now, said it was. I couldn't find it on my Jepp chart or in my Garmin
> 296's database, which I'd just updated -- from Jepp, of course.
>

>
> Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?
>
> Are any military fixes in the Jepp database?
>
> Has anyone else been cleared to a military fix?
>
> Do I ask too many questions?
>
> Jon

Dont let Denver Approach be the model to base all ATC on,
from your other post about your approach into 2V2 which I
just saw, or other dealings with them, you should know by
now how they are. I cant count the times theyve given me
90 degree intercepts at or INSIDE the FAF, or vectors
AWAY from a localizer to join. Pretty sad when anyone
down there isnt familiar with an airport within 10 miles
of their main airport.
Theyve never forced me into a Visual, if they did I'd never
report the airport in sight and prepare to be sent into the
penalty box, silly eh? There are a few genuinely
competent controllers that I know down there that try to stay
acquainted with their own airspace and some fixes outside of it,
oddly they are former center controllers and/or pilots.

Chris

Steve Bosell for President 2004
"Vote for me or I'll sue you"
www.philhendrieshow.com




"Doug" > wrote in message
om...
> Gee, do I get to "get peeved" every time I file to an intersection
> that ATC doesn't have in ITS database? I guess not. You know, I
> suspect the airlines have this intersection and ATC uses it a lot.
> It's in ATC database, and the airlines know about it, so they figure
> everyone should. I have filed to intersections, even VORs and airports
> that were unknown to the ATC I was talking to. (Usually in a different
> sector, but not necessarily, I've seen ATC NOT know about airports
> underlying their Class BRAVO! (Platte Valley, Denver)). I've also seen
> them not know about intersections in their sector. Anyway, with ATC
> under IFR, things like this are fairly frequent. I took a tour of
> Denver Tracon and was astounded by their lack of knowledge about
> anything they don't commonly do and seeming lack of ability to look
> things up. Oh, they have software that has more info than what they
> commonly use, but they don't use it much, maybe they do by now. There
> is a saying that you really aren't fully operational until you know
> what ATC is going to say when you make a request ( or know that it
> will be one of several possible replies). Just keep your cool, be
> pleasant, even if they aren't, and get what you need. Work it out.
> Like someone said, this appears to be a Jepp problem, so send them an
> email.
>
> The one that gets me is when they get peeved because I want to fly an
> approach, and they want me to take the visual! I am on an IFR flight
> plan, and I need to practice my approaches "in the system". But he
> has a coffee break or something coming up. And it's not uncommon. Many
> airlines have op specs that REQUIRE them to fly the approach, or so I
> am told. They need to get routed to the final vector or some such. I
> guess maybe he's busy, and I am a pain in the ass. Sheesh, he signed
> on to be an air traffic controller, but ask him to control air
> traffic, man, " I don't want to do THAT! That would be a lotta work!"
> Maybe I should tell him I have to because it's in my "op specs".
>
> >The controller, a bit peeved
> > by now, said it was. I couldn't find it on my Jepp chart or in my Garmin
> > 296's database, which I'd just updated -- from Jepp, of course.
> >
>
> >
> > Is this intersection on the government's low altitude chart?
> >
> > Are any military fixes in the Jepp database?
> >
> > Has anyone else been cleared to a military fix?
> >
> > Do I ask too many questions?
> >
> > Jon